good poem. But I have to point out that Ayn Rand felt that all those who could not create should perish. Her philosophies went a little too far in the opposite direction. While I loved her work I felt she needed to cut the average person a little more slack. There are many average people who help make those who create a success and she failed to take that into consideration.

No one is average or normal. They only make themselves that way by avoiding becoming who they can truly be. Rands work is more about that. When Rand talked about certain people being parasites it was more about those who impose this sense of being average on others than on those who have that sense placed on them. Refer to Howard Rourke’s diatribe in the courtroom in The Fountainhead. Rand stood for the rights of the individual. All of those people who choose to actively make their life have meaning. Rand stood against those who would make us think that our individual lives have no meaning apart from what they feel is the good of the herd. Which is usually not really the good of the herd but what is good for their own parasitic desires. We all deal with others on an individual level in our lives, however we are often told or instructed not to do this. We are often instructed or demanded to think only of what is considered the best for the majority. Many do this blindly to the point where they lose site of what is really best for everyone. If we are all going about miserable to follow some needs of the many program then the world is full of miserable people which leads to more pain and suffering for the many as well. Point is live your life to create value in it and then the needs of the many will truly be met without scaraficing your own life. If you are not creating value in your own life than that is being selfish.

This was very good Mark. My view of Bentham is slightly different What I learned of Bentham was that he believed if people worked towards their own best interest it was often also in the best interest of everyone else. He believed in helping his fellow man. But he also believed in letting the individual thrive as i understood it. It is possible that I mixed him and Alexis de Tocqueville a little as I was studying both of them for a self described marxist professor I had in college.

utilitarianism as I understand it is simply the pursuit of the greatest pleasure as measured by what brings the most happiness to the most people. Some people feel that taking from one rich man and giving to ten poor people is what is meant by this but I believe that the loss of faith that one can be rich and unmolested is actually a long term negative that out weighs the short term pleasure by those who divide the spoils.

anyway thanks for bringing back memories of polysci 400. he he he. Good write and great mental massage.

Brad I must admit that I am purely fixating on one aspect of Bentham’s philosophy here that resulted in the justification of murder for the sake of cannibalism after the fact. I at some time my do an actual article on that subject that inspired this poem. The poem is also about how some fixate on the surface of the philosophy of “the needs of the many” rather than digging deeper. However, that being said I am an absurdist and believe that if we combine absurdism with objectivism and a couple of other things then humanity can get it right. Most of my work is about the balance between individual needs and the greater good, becoming a person of value, shaping reality to that which serves not only the needs and desires of the individual but also the needs and desires of the whole.

Excellent thoughts.

A compelling post, Mark.

I cannot join in the discussion on the philosophies of the characters that you mention here Mark because I do not know them.
What I can say is that I thought this was a very good piece of writing with a wonderful rhythm.

I really enjoyed that Mark, and I agree with both you and Brad in the comments. It\’s a balance, and I think at some level Bentham is correct, but others have taken it to extremes. Perhaps it needs to be applied with a generous does of Nash\’s Equilibrium so that happiness is also maximised across the whole.

Loved the way you wove in the broken bottle and phonebook into a philosophical poem.

Christianity is at its heart an individual’s choice to give up his/her own pursuit of happiness to do the will of the one who is the source of joy. I’m sure that you have heard this before.

Christ is the Shepherd who will leave the 99 to seek the one who is lost. What he asks of us is to have a personal relationship with him – this is more important than any other work that he calls us to do.

Duff,
I am quite sure that Bentham would have been horrified by the event the inspired much of this poem. When I do get down to writing an actual piece about that event and its relationship to Bentham’s philosophy I hope to be more sympathic to him and his beliefs. However, poetry is about emotions more than rationality.

Funny how the poetry challenge words got me thinking about Bentham and this event that was justified by one aspect of his work taken the a ludacris extreme. So thank you for giving the challenge.

I must admit being a little lost reading this, it being more cerebral than I am used to reading, but it flows nicely, and seems to be complete in itself. I think it gets a little preachy at the end, though.
But overall it was enjoyable reading, I read it a few times.

You make me smile, without guilt.

I’m all for the needs of the many; to the extent that we should all work together as a collective to co-exist with nature and provide for our fellow man – in theory. Unfortunately, the human race is, by nature, a selfish species; and so, such dreams remain unachievable.

It must be terrible to have such high ideals, it must hurt when it all falls flate

That was wonderfully bitter! I don’t know if it was meant to be, but that’s how I read it. I like Ayn Rand, who is often attributed with way more than she intended, or completely different stuff than she intended, even in her own lifetime. I had to read it twice. Alot there.

Annie, yes there was a certain degree of bitterness put into the piece. A certain degree of cynicism as well. (to Lew) With a little bit of preachiness. That is the dilemma of philosophical writing I guess. It always sound preachy and at times can sound bitter.

Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead is one of the works that has most affected my personal world view. That combined with Absurdist writers like Camus and Kafka. lol what a combination.

Very powerful and intense. Fine prose you give us here. Definitely deserves a second and third view. Quite a statement in fine form. I wish I could read the intro as well, BUT THE ADS prevent me from doing so…..anyway it’s the message that matters. This is really great writing Mark.

Mark, very profound, and a lot to think about here. I think many act, or react, without thinking much about where the thought comes from or to what it may lead. Excellent work.

Good peice, althought I have no clue as to what I just read…hmmm

Re: Nationalize BP Now!…

"The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few. "

Lol, if you had a……